OUCH
www.guardian.co.uk/sport/gallery/2008/oct/13/1?picture=338534435

I bet he had a massive, round, flat face afterwards, like when Jerry hits Tom with a frying pan.
( Red Rocket coulda been anything that he wanted to be, Mon 13 Oct 2008, 13:00, archived)

oof.
I don't like boxing.
( Moon Girl Technologies I make computers, Mon 13 Oct 2008, 13:01, archived)

boxing cricket

I LOVE IT.
( Red Rocket coulda been anything that he wanted to be, Mon 13 Oct 2008, 13:02, archived)

DREADLOCK HOLIDAY

( Bobson Chimpworth can't wait to celebrate the birth of baby cheeses, Mon 13 Oct 2008, 13:02, archived)

I don't understand why people like boxing

( Pickle Fairy on top of the tree, Mon 13 Oct 2008, 13:01, archived)

I have a very famous ancestor
who was a bare knuckle boxer
( Bobson Chimpworth can't wait to celebrate the birth of baby cheeses, Mon 13 Oct 2008, 13:02, archived)

i once punched someone
i have scars to prove it, he had big teeth
(diode_dirigible III, Mon 13 Oct 2008, 13:03, archived)

I've never punched anyone

( Bobson Chimpworth can't wait to celebrate the birth of baby cheeses, Mon 13 Oct 2008, 13:04, archived)

you arent missing out on much
chicks dont dig scars :(
(diode_dirigible III, Mon 13 Oct 2008, 13:05, archived)

:o(

( Hedonist so this is what b3ta looks like at 5am!, Mon 13 Oct 2008, 13:11, archived)

yeah they do
especially scars with stories.
( spangolin tastes good and makes you feel clever, Mon 13 Oct 2008, 13:31, archived)

Would we know him if you said who he was ?

( turb0t, Mon 13 Oct 2008, 13:03, archived)

Probably not

( Bobson Chimpworth can't wait to celebrate the birth of baby cheeses, Mon 13 Oct 2008, 13:04, archived)

that very famous, huh?

( Enigmatic ™                 Voice No More                  ©, Mon 13 Oct 2008, 13:04, archived)

Well
if you were into Victorian history/boxing
( Bobson Chimpworth can't wait to celebrate the birth of baby cheeses, Mon 13 Oct 2008, 13:06, archived)

Did he have a twirly moustache?

( Hedonist so this is what b3ta looks like at 5am!, Mon 13 Oct 2008, 13:07, archived)

Nope

( Bobson Chimpworth can't wait to celebrate the birth of baby cheeses, Mon 13 Oct 2008, 13:08, archived)

all Victorian boxers had a twirly moustache

( Hedonist so this is what b3ta looks like at 5am!, Mon 13 Oct 2008, 13:09, archived)

Not this one
www.cyberboxingzone.com/images/langham-nat-22.jpg
( Bobson Chimpworth can't wait to celebrate the birth of baby cheeses, Mon 13 Oct 2008, 13:11, archived)

He looks gay

(bogus official YES NO WIN LOSE, Mon 13 Oct 2008, 13:12, archived)

You look gayer

( Bobson Chimpworth can't wait to celebrate the birth of baby cheeses, Mon 13 Oct 2008, 13:12, archived)

Yeah
But I'm not dead.

*wins*
(bogus official YES NO WIN LOSE, Mon 13 Oct 2008, 13:15, archived)

Is he wearing make-up?

( Enigmatic ™                 Voice No More                  ©, Mon 13 Oct 2008, 13:12, archived)

I don't know
i'll ask him
( Bobson Chimpworth can't wait to celebrate the birth of baby cheeses, Mon 13 Oct 2008, 13:13, archived)

Artists impression
That, or it was a very crap digital camera that they used.
( turb0t, Mon 13 Oct 2008, 13:13, archived)

TV and Film and The Beano lied to me :o(

( Hedonist so this is what b3ta looks like at 5am!, Mon 13 Oct 2008, 13:13, archived)

www.google.co.uk/search?sourceid=navclient&hl=en-GB&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4HPEB_en-GBGB240GB240&q=nat+langham
( Bobson Chimpworth can't wait to celebrate the birth of baby cheeses, Mon 13 Oct 2008, 13:09, archived)

Wiki Says:
Nat Langham (20 May 1820 – 1 September 1871) was an English middleweight bare-knuckle prize fighter. He had the distinction of being the only Victorian boxer without a twirly moustache.
( turb0t, Mon 13 Oct 2008, 13:12, archived)

But very fetching outfits
www.cartoonstock.com/lowres/csl1299l.jpg
( Enigmatic ™                 Voice No More                  ©, Mon 13 Oct 2008, 13:10, archived)

I like how there's a hanging post in the background

( Bobson Chimpworth can't wait to celebrate the birth of baby cheeses, Mon 13 Oct 2008, 13:11, archived)

No, thats Jesus

( turb0t, Mon 13 Oct 2008, 13:14, archived)

My great grandad is an amazingly famous historian.
Providing you're into the history of the industrial revolution from the perspective of Methodists and written in the 1950's.
( Malchick sounds exciting, Mon 13 Oct 2008, 13:08, archived)

My Grandfather helped set up the International Courts of Justice in The Hague

( The Teviot Moose still has a job in The City, Mon 13 Oct 2008, 13:27, archived)

You're an idiot

( Malchick sounds exciting, Mon 13 Oct 2008, 13:06, archived)

YOU'RE an idiot

( Bobson Chimpworth can't wait to celebrate the birth of baby cheeses, Mon 13 Oct 2008, 13:08, archived)

knuckle boxer naked lady



I dont know:(
( Mykeyboy Wins, Mon 13 Oct 2008, 13:07, archived)

: /

( Bobson Chimpworth can't wait to celebrate the birth of baby cheeses, Mon 13 Oct 2008, 13:08, archived)

It's the pinnacle of competition.
Man against man, with just their brute strength to guide them.

Plus, it keeps people who like to smash people's faces in, off the streets, for at least an hour or two a day.
( Bud Muhnquai [ :( ], Mon 13 Oct 2008, 13:03, archived)

Some people seem to think
that if you take fighting, and make up some rules for it, it's suddenly not fighting anymore, and actually a sport instead.
( Moon Girl Technologies I make computers, Mon 13 Oct 2008, 13:04, archived)

I think you will find it is still called a fight

( Enigmatic ™                 Voice No More                  ©, Mon 13 Oct 2008, 13:05, archived)

Yeah but it's figurative,
like when they score a "try" in rugby, even though they actually succeeded.
( Moon Girl Technologies I make computers, Mon 13 Oct 2008, 13:13, archived)

so you are saying that 'love' in tennis involves no sweaty fumblings in the girl's changing rooms afterwards?

( Enigmatic ™                 Voice No More                  ©, Mon 13 Oct 2008, 13:15, archived)

As disappointing as it may be...

( Moon Girl Technologies I make computers, Mon 13 Oct 2008, 13:17, archived)

No
its only in the men's changing room
( turb0t, Mon 13 Oct 2008, 13:17, archived)

But a try as well as scoring points in itself gives the opportunity to _try_ to score with a kick at goal
and thus get another two points with the conversion.
( in vino veritas, Mon 13 Oct 2008, 13:18, archived)

I just decided to look at the etymology.
All the entries I can find say that a try is worth three points. This makes me doubt the quality of their research.
( Malchick sounds exciting, Mon 13 Oct 2008, 13:18, archived)

tri - makes sense - latin old schools etc

( Enigmatic ™                 Voice No More                  ©, Mon 13 Oct 2008, 13:19, archived)

No, I mean that it's only three in rugby union.
It's four in league.
( Malchick sounds exciting, Mon 13 Oct 2008, 13:20, archived)

I like Bogus' free try at kicking a goal effort down there
It may not be accurate but it sounds good.
( Enigmatic ™                 Voice No More                  ©, Mon 13 Oct 2008, 13:22, archived)

It's very true

(bogus official YES NO WIN LOSE, Mon 13 Oct 2008, 13:27, archived)

It's five in union, isn't it?

( in vino veritas, Mon 13 Oct 2008, 13:23, archived)

Yeah.
I humbly retract all my criticisms.
( Malchick sounds exciting, Mon 13 Oct 2008, 13:24, archived)

hmm,
I had always imagined it came from the first ever instance of Rugby, when the guy (can't remember his name) invented the game by picking up the ball during a football match and putting it in the goal. I imagine the P.E. teacher going "no that wasn't a goal... but it was a good try"
( Moon Girl Technologies I make computers, Mon 13 Oct 2008, 13:24, archived)

Webb Ellis.

( Malchick sounds exciting, Mon 13 Oct 2008, 13:27, archived)

That in itself is a myth
Ball carrying games have existed for centuries, way before some puffed up little cheat decided to do it.
(bogus official YES NO WIN LOSE, Mon 13 Oct 2008, 13:28, archived)

It apparently was worth 3 points between 1893 and 1971
according to Wikipedia.

I think that might be only for rugby union though.

EDIT: Yes, it was worth 3 points in rugby league until 1983.
( in vino veritas, Mon 13 Oct 2008, 13:21, archived)

Factormation
In the old days, which of course I can remember, once you got the ball over the goal line, which was originally not a scoring act, you got to have a try at kicking a goal. Do you see?
(bogus official YES NO WIN LOSE, Mon 13 Oct 2008, 13:20, archived)

Does that mean running and throwing and swimming and kicking balls
aren't sports either?
(well, Mon 13 Oct 2008, 13:06, archived)

I heard that Snooker was just smacking balls around with sticks
That's not a sport at all!
( Theoban This isn't what I ordered....., Mon 13 Oct 2008, 13:08, archived)

Im thinking of writing a strongly worded letter.

( Mykeyboy Wins, Mon 13 Oct 2008, 13:09, archived)

GREAT CONTRIBUTION.

( Bud Muhnquai [ :( ], Mon 13 Oct 2008, 13:10, archived)

Same as golf, tennis, baseball...
No sport is actually a sport.
( Bud Muhnquai [ :( ], Mon 13 Oct 2008, 13:09, archived)

I've no idea what a sport actually is now.

( Moon Girl Technologies I make computers, Mon 13 Oct 2008, 13:13, archived)

I'm fairly sure Cricket is still a sport.

(well, Mon 13 Oct 2008, 13:14, archived)

Cricket is a pastime
Only Chessboxing is considered a sport now, in this brave new world.
( Theoban This isn't what I ordered....., Mon 13 Oct 2008, 13:17, archived)

We were talking about chess boxing on the radio just a few hours ago.
YOU WOULD HAVE LOVED IT.
( Malchick sounds exciting, Mon 13 Oct 2008, 13:19, archived)

I'd never even heard of it before now.

(well, Mon 13 Oct 2008, 13:23, archived)

Well, it's still fighting
Just suddenly being a sport means it is good to fight.
( Pickle Fairy on top of the tree, Mon 13 Oct 2008, 13:13, archived)

What's wrong with fighting, anyway?
Great fun.
( Esme Weatherwax The Mad Old Cat Lady 2008, Mon 13 Oct 2008, 13:14, archived)

Typical Irish!

( Pickle Fairy on top of the tree, Mon 13 Oct 2008, 13:15, archived)

Sorry, I know it might offend your own peaceful nation, fine gentle people.

( Esme Weatherwax The Mad Old Cat Lady 2008, Mon 13 Oct 2008, 13:17, archived)

( Pickle Fairy on top of the tree, Mon 13 Oct 2008, 13:18, archived)

:p

( Esme Weatherwax The Mad Old Cat Lady 2008, Mon 13 Oct 2008, 13:18, archived)

hahaha,
gentlemen don't use fists, they use the Cavalry.
( Moon Girl Technologies I make computers, Mon 13 Oct 2008, 13:18, archived)

It's all your savages outside the M25 Barrier, using fists to fight and all that.
Us inside-M25'ers just play top-trumps with metrosexual icons, like ipods, mobiles, louis vuitton cases, £6+ fags...etc.

It generaly goes like this.

"Oi, you, are you lookin' at me pint?"
"Yes sir, I am, and I'm looking at it funnly".
"I shall 'ave you, you cunt."
"I should warn you good sir, I have a Prada Phone, my shoes were brought in harrods, and I had lunch in the world's only unknown 3 michillin star resturant."
"You fuckin' mug, ** Gets out the Sony Erricson X1 with dimond encrusted logo ** "
"Sir, I warn you, you won't win this fight."
"** Gets out buisness card **, It's bone-white with raised Helvetica 12 point title."
"Fair play mate, sorry, won't happen again."
( Chef of Medicine [animal] Gonz, Mon 13 Oct 2008, 13:33, archived)

haha

( spangolin tastes good and makes you feel clever, Mon 13 Oct 2008, 13:34, archived)

Haha, *clicks*

( Esme Weatherwax The Mad Old Cat Lady 2008, Mon 13 Oct 2008, 13:34, archived)

Actually trying to knock someone out
by punching them in the face... it's utterly brutal. Judo isn't so bad, I suppose.
( Moon Girl Technologies I make computers, Mon 13 Oct 2008, 13:16, archived)

So don't do it, then. People like it, obviously.
It's quite natural behaviour.
( Esme Weatherwax The Mad Old Cat Lady 2008, Mon 13 Oct 2008, 13:17, archived)

"Natural behaviour" isn't justification for anything.
If everyone reverted to "natural behaviour", civilisation would be fucked. This is actually what is happening.
( Moon Girl Technologies I make computers, Mon 13 Oct 2008, 13:20, archived)

What? Society is less violent now that it's ever been.

(well, Mon 13 Oct 2008, 13:23, archived)

Not all natural behaviour is violence.

( Moon Girl Technologies I make computers, Mon 13 Oct 2008, 13:24, archived)

I never said it was.
Anyway, whatever. Boxing is cool, some people don't think so. Some people like it, some people don't.
( Esme Weatherwax The Mad Old Cat Lady 2008, Mon 13 Oct 2008, 13:23, archived)

Don't start them off about nature and natural behaviour
I mentioned it loosely last week and all hell broke lose
( Enigmatic ™                 Voice No More                  ©, Mon 13 Oct 2008, 13:29, archived)

Yeah, I'm bored of it now.
Let's talk about kittens.
( Esme Weatherwax The Mad Old Cat Lady 2008, Mon 13 Oct 2008, 13:35, archived)

No
the vast majority of boxing is for points, not knockouts. Why is consensually competing at something "brutal"? The word conveys unthinking violence and oppression.

Some boxers are brutes, it must be conceded.
( Flapjack - floats like a butterfly, bumbles like a bee, Mon 13 Oct 2008, 13:31, archived)

Yeah but you get points for hitting.
In the face. Ugh.
( Moon Girl Technologies I make computers, Mon 13 Oct 2008, 13:33, archived)

... yes?

( Flapjack - floats like a butterfly, bumbles like a bee, Mon 13 Oct 2008, 13:41, archived)

But that's horrid!

( Moon Girl Technologies I make computers, Mon 13 Oct 2008, 13:45, archived)

Only if it's done against your permission
see also: sex.
( Flapjack - floats like a butterfly, bumbles like a bee, Mon 13 Oct 2008, 13:47, archived)

It's horrid anyway, to punch someone in the face.
Whether they agree to it or not. It's still violence, and it's still brutal, and I don't think it should be encouraged. To purposefully do anything that could hurt and/or damage another person, and to what ends? Just to prove that you're better at such than they are? It's not civilised, and no amount of rules on top of it can convince me otherwise.
( Moon Girl Technologies I make computers, Mon 13 Oct 2008, 13:49, archived)

If you live in fear of violence
you can't deal with it rationally, you allow it undue power over yourself. Being comfortable and able at violence has allowed me to make moral choices I'd have been to scared to make had I not studied things like boxing.

Civilisation is not purely predicated on universal pacifism and love for one's neighbour, as nice as that would be; there is an extent to which violence is controlled by the reality of a risk of retribution.
( Flapjack - floats like a butterfly, bumbles like a bee, Mon 13 Oct 2008, 13:57, archived)

That's an interesting take on it.
Actually, to be honest, the worst thing in my mind isn't so much that people do it, as that people watch it.

Retribution is an interesting thing, as it's a consequence of the iterated prisoner's dilemma out of Game Theory. I don't know to what extend it actually keeps people in line in the real world, because the thing about Game Theory is that it assumes all the players are rational and self-interested, which isn't necessarily the case. BUT I must admit, I do tend to feel that some people are obnoxious precisely because they know you won't or can't do anything about it. How would you construct a fair legal system that allowed you to punch someone who slagged you off unprovoked, without it all ending in tears? I don't know. But boxing isn't really about retribution anyway.

Actually it comes down to what Bud said about it being the purest form of competition, however serious he was being, I think that's exactly what I don't like about it. I hate competition.
( Moon Girl Technologies I make computers, Mon 13 Oct 2008, 14:08, archived)

I'd agree on the Game Theory side of things
the society will settle to a level of obnoxiousness permitted by the society. But there are relatively few people who will risk a bloody nose for the sake of throwing a few insults; if people were more prepared to stand up to loudmouths, there'd be fewer of them.

My view is that violence is a morally-neutral tool (when in the context of it being needed, rather than chosen), and that boxing teaches the tool well. The matches aren't about retribution, but having learned it I appreciate the techniques of it.
( Flapjack - floats like a butterfly, bumbles like a bee, Mon 13 Oct 2008, 14:16, archived)

We're not entirely in disagreement here,
the problem is if you hit someone for slagging you off, it's you who'd end up before the judge. And you can't even go to the police complaining that someone called you a bad name. There is just no consequence whatsoever for being outright disrespectful in public. The danger is, you can't prove that he called you a bad name before you hit him, and you can't just let everyone hit each other when they feel like it without legal consequence...

I'm also kind of with you on the use of violence, and I can see how boxing could improve a person through discipline and whatnot. Apparently giving anti-social youths Karate lessons does them the world of good. But it's when it becomes a spectator sport that it sends shivers down my spine, because violence administered dispassionately for some worthy end is one thing, but when people watch sports the atmosphere is anything but dispassionate.
( Moon Girl Technologies I make computers, Mon 13 Oct 2008, 14:26, archived)

ESME
LET'S RUCK
( spangolin tastes good and makes you feel clever, Mon 13 Oct 2008, 13:18, archived)

HELL YEAH

( Esme Weatherwax The Mad Old Cat Lady 2008, Mon 13 Oct 2008, 13:24, archived)

*gets mud pit ready*

( Eddache And curse that prevailing south-westerly, Mon 13 Oct 2008, 13:28, archived)

I'd like to have a go at it.
But I don't think I'd do very well, as a shortie.
( spangolin tastes good and makes you feel clever, Mon 13 Oct 2008, 13:05, archived)

against crouch you would do well

( Enigmatic ™                 Voice No More                  ©, Mon 13 Oct 2008, 13:06, archived)

I'd only be able to reach his nads... oh.

( spangolin tastes good and makes you feel clever, Mon 13 Oct 2008, 13:07, archived)

head butt his plums

( Enigmatic ™                 Voice No More                  ©, Mon 13 Oct 2008, 13:08, archived)

I do a boxing session once a week and I'm a puny weak-arse.
There are a couple of girls that do it who are also very petite. It's all about who you're up against, and actually getting yourself fit rather than being able to punch through a concrete block :)
( The Teviot Moose still has a job in The City, Mon 13 Oct 2008, 13:07, archived)

actually getting yourself fit rather than being able to punch through a concrete block :) how much heavy stuff you can fit in your handbag to twat them with
( Eddache And curse that prevailing south-westerly, Mon 13 Oct 2008, 13:10, archived)

hmmmmm.
there seem to be more kick-boxing classes for girls around here. specifically boxing ones are a bit sparse.
( spangolin tastes good and makes you feel clever, Mon 13 Oct 2008, 13:18, archived)

Tyson's a shorty too.
Work on your left hook, you could follow in his footsteps.
( Flapjack - floats like a butterfly, bumbles like a bee, Mon 13 Oct 2008, 13:12, archived)

I think I'll draw the line at the face tattoo
and perhaps the ear biting, but I'm not ruling that out entirely.
( spangolin tastes good and makes you feel clever, Mon 13 Oct 2008, 13:15, archived)

It's just so one of the other kids could shout "FIIIIIIGHT!"
and every single kid in the playground rushes over to form a massive circle around them just for it to be stopped within a minute by teachers.

I remember the time someone shouted "FIIIIIIGHT!" and starting running with everyone, on mass, rushing after him. There was no actual fight though. He just ran around with everyone following, like a massive conga line.
( Eddache And curse that prevailing south-westerly, Mon 13 Oct 2008, 13:06, archived)

fascinatimng

( Enigmatic ™                 Voice No More                  ©, Mon 13 Oct 2008, 13:07, archived)

IN O!

( Eddache And curse that prevailing south-westerly, Mon 13 Oct 2008, 13:08, archived)

I remember when someone collected an entire sticker set, and they would chuck all their doubles up in the air and yell "Scramble".
I remember once doing it to a kid who hadn't completed his collection, and the teacher made me stay in for the whole week.

He had quite a few shineys if I remember correctly.
( Chef of Medicine [animal] Gonz, Mon 13 Oct 2008, 13:11, archived)

Ditto with Pogs.
My mate had a 5" (depth) metal smasher thing that he got from the states.

I had loads of hockey and Deep Space 9 ones that my dad brought back from the states, like, a couple of boxes of them.
( Chef of Medicine [animal] Gonz, Mon 13 Oct 2008, 13:14, archived)

It's technical,
it's tactical, it's fascinating to watch a very good boxer. Some of the best sporting moments of the last century were in boxing. I don't understand why people don't*.

* unless they have psychological issues with physical violence or confrontation.
( Flapjack - floats like a butterfly, bumbles like a bee, Mon 13 Oct 2008, 13:15, archived)

People think it's barbaric.
Despite the fact that it's a great way for idiots to make a lot of money, exploiting their only assets.
( Bud Muhnquai [ :( ], Mon 13 Oct 2008, 13:17, archived)

Plus, it teaches self defence, disaplin, confrontation, how to let a fight end when it's over (rather than continueing grudges), and teaches people that they're not going to break after a fight....
... in an enviroment that is relativly safe.
( Chef of Medicine [animal] Gonz, Mon 13 Oct 2008, 13:21, archived)

It's a working class sport
which doesn't help matters. Most boxers I knew when I was doing it were far less violent out of the ring than their peers, for all sorts of reasons. And Dr. Klitschko's hardly a meathead idiot.
( Flapjack - floats like a butterfly, bumbles like a bee, Mon 13 Oct 2008, 13:26, archived)

I'm neither here nor there on boxing.
It makes a lot of people a lot of money, and I'm not one of them.

However, I don't have cauliflower ears and have never had my nose broken.

It's 50/50, really.
( Bud Muhnquai [ :( ], Mon 13 Oct 2008, 13:32, archived)

Yup, pretty much this.
I have those issues, but my mates love it, one was gonna go pro but on his grand-dad's deathbed, he said not to do it, so he does weight lifting instead.

I think it's an east-end cockney thing.
( Chef of Medicine [animal] Gonz, Mon 13 Oct 2008, 13:17, archived)

criminy

(diode_dirigible III, Mon 13 Oct 2008, 13:01, archived)

BLAMMO!

( Bobson Chimpworth can't wait to celebrate the birth of baby cheeses, Mon 13 Oct 2008, 13:01, archived)

POW! Right in the kisser!

( Eddache And curse that prevailing south-westerly, Mon 13 Oct 2008, 13:02, archived)

arg
no nose for him.
( spangolin tastes good and makes you feel clever, Mon 13 Oct 2008, 13:04, archived)

I can do that
Really
(bogus official YES NO WIN LOSE, Mon 13 Oct 2008, 13:04, archived)

Was watching the Junior Middleweight fight on Thursday night
Knockout in the 12th round at 2:59. Great stuff.
( Theoban This isn't what I ordered....., Mon 13 Oct 2008, 13:04, archived)

how "junior" do they mean by junior middleweight championships?
three year olds?
( Hedonist so this is what b3ta looks like at 5am!, Mon 13 Oct 2008, 13:08, archived)

Two fat toddlers punching the ever loving crap out of each other
We'll call it Totwars, we'll make a million.
( Theoban This isn't what I ordered....., Mon 13 Oct 2008, 13:10, archived)

Argh, the scroll on this laptop is broken, it's annoying.

( Esme Weatherwax The Mad Old Cat Lady 2008, Mon 13 Oct 2008, 13:07, archived)

Well it is usually made out of very thin paper, so it's no surprise your scroll broke really.

( Eddache And curse that prevailing south-westerly, Mon 13 Oct 2008, 13:09, archived)

*spangs*

( Esme Weatherwax The Mad Old Cat Lady 2008, Mon 13 Oct 2008, 13:11, archived)

*looks like the boxer from the photo*

( Eddache And curse that prevailing south-westerly, Mon 13 Oct 2008, 13:13, archived)

Haha

( Esme Weatherwax The Mad Old Cat Lady 2008, Mon 13 Oct 2008, 13:15, archived)