Shit Spelling. Shit Grammar. A rant.
Apologies in advance, but I *have* to rid my intellectual bowels of this massive lump.


Firstly if you have problems with spelling - no need to feel any shame or fear, it's a common problem and also one easily dealt with. Use Firefox. Set up the English Dictionary Automatic Spell Checker. Each word you misspell will appear with a dotted red line underneath. You need only click on the word and you will be given the opportunity to choose the correct spelling. Alternatively write your QOTW offering in Word or similar and run a spell check.


Secondly if you are unable to use proper English Grammar either purchase or borrow (from a library - if there are any left around you) a copy of the excellent 'Eats Shoots and Leaves' by Lynne Truss. This deals with most common problems and will put you on the path to righteousness.

As a small note….


Its - this is the possessive version - e.g. The monkey grimaced. Its turds were massive.

It's - this is a contraction - a shortening of two words - It and Is - e.g. It's nearly the end of the week, time for a new Question.

Their, There and They're

Their - Possessive - Their house - the house belonging to them.

There - Positional - Over there - Their house is over there.

They're - Contraction - They are - They're over there in their house.

Also beware of homophones - these are not phones from nokia (ha!) but words which sound the same but are spelt differently.

Please, please for the love of all that's good and ginger be aware of these few small rules - use a spell checker, read your post before you click Post and most importantly ensure you know how to use (what is for the majority of you) your FIRST language!


Aaaaaannnnnndddddd breathe.



/rant over.


*EDIT*

And another thing....

Aside from Your (possessive - belonging to - Your fart was smelly.
And You're (contraction)You are smelly.

There is also the abomination that is commonly known as the Greengrocers' apostrophe...most recently sighted in fucking Tescos in Hertfordshire.
CD's CD's!?!? CD'S WHAT?!
's means it belongs to someone!

Plurals are shown by a simple s or es

*Goes off to lie down. Yes LIE down not LAY - Chickens lay (so arguably I could...) but people LIE down.
( chickenlady Official Antelope keeper and trainer for 2009, Wed 2 Apr 2008, 10:53, closed)

*clicky clicky*
and anyone confusing "your" and "you're" can have a slap as well.
( crackhouseceilidhband is bitter in a good way, like olives, Wed 2 Apr 2008, 10:59, closed)

Bugger!
I forgot to add that one.
( chickenlady Official Antelope keeper and trainer for 2009, Wed 2 Apr 2008, 11:01, closed)

question
I get confused as to whether or not there is an apostrophe before the s if you are referring to an object that belongs to someone e.g. john's hamster, or johns hamster. I always think it's john's hamster. Is that right? And if so, is it just a peculiar quirk of the English language that makes its correct if you are referring to "its breakfast"?

EDIT - and *click* BTW, more fun than most of this weeks posts.
As a 27 year old graduate I guess I should really know all this, but frankly, I blame the lack of grammar teaching at school.
( althegeordie probably shat on your face as you slept last night, Wed 2 Apr 2008, 11:03, closed)

Apostrophes
Yes, "its" is a quirk of the language. You'd think it should have an apostrophe, as it means "belonging to it", but it comes under the umbrella of possessive pronouns, which don't have apostrophes.
( K2k6 has seen Lesley Garrett naked, Wed 2 Apr 2008, 11:06, closed)

I love you so much chickenlady,
You are my favourite b3tard by some distance
(Jugular, Wed 2 Apr 2008, 11:07, closed)

@alt
yes, apostrophe to denote possession, except in the case of its.

Also, when a word ends in s there is no additonal s required after the apostrophe, e.g. James' pen.
( crackhouseceilidhband is bitter in a good way, like olives, Wed 2 Apr 2008, 11:07, closed)

Possesive apostrophe
The monkey's turds were massive. Usually applies to plural nouns.

Rob Manuel, Denise Wilton and Cal Henderson's b3ta servers. Joint ownership.

Chickenlady's and himjim's Myspace pages were hacked. Singular ownership.
(himjim died a little more inside on, Wed 2 Apr 2008, 11:09, closed)

@CHCB
Not strictly true. That only applies to plurals. It should be James's pen, but his parents' house, for example.

This isn't always adhered to though.
( K2k6 has seen Lesley Garrett naked, Wed 2 Apr 2008, 11:09, closed)

^
Fuck! I stand corrected!
Can you tell I never read that panda book?
( crackhouseceilidhband is bitter in a good way, like olives, Wed 2 Apr 2008, 11:10, closed)

@ CHCB
I agree with your usage of the extra s in the case of James' pen...

However, being taught by Catholic nuns I was instructed that only Jesus has this usage and no other name.

I ignore that and avoid using lots of ssssss
( chickenlady Official Antelope keeper and trainer for 2009, Wed 2 Apr 2008, 11:11, closed)

James's pen
I used to do it the CHCB way, as it were, but learned I was wrong on one of these Test the Nation programmes. Then I looked it up and found that it should only apply to plurals, not every word ending in s.
( K2k6 has seen Lesley Garrett naked, Wed 2 Apr 2008, 11:13, closed)

@chickenlady
which works nicely if you want to say:
Jesus' turds were massive.
( crackhouseceilidhband is bitter in a good way, like olives, Wed 2 Apr 2008, 11:13, closed)

@chickenlady
Is it just Jesus that gets the extra esses, or does that apply to any religious figurehead?
( althegeordie probably shat on your face as you slept last night, Wed 2 Apr 2008, 11:13, closed)

it's my understanding
that if it sounds like there is an extra s on the end, as in James's then you use the extra s.

if it is at your parents' place (for example) then you don't

might not be quite right, but it's a pretty safe rule to use
( Vipros this crack is really moreish, Wed 2 Apr 2008, 11:14, closed)

Hmmmm, speaking of CHCBs way
(should there have been an apostrophe there?)

Anyway, it's Wednesday, which according to my Wible makes it time for to love yourself rather than your neighbour.
( althegeordie probably shat on your face as you slept last night, Wed 2 Apr 2008, 11:15, closed)

@ Althegeordie
These were Catholic nuns.

There were no other religious leaders.
( chickenlady Official Antelope keeper and trainer for 2009, Wed 2 Apr 2008, 11:17, closed)

Yes, Al.
This has the makings of one of those 'go off at a tangent for ages' threads!

PS, there should be an apostrophe in "CHCB's"
( K2k6 has seen Lesley Garrett naked, Wed 2 Apr 2008, 11:17, closed)

Considering the theme of this week's QOTW
Shouldn't you have recommended 'Eats, Shites & Leaves' instead?
( mistaspakkaman - meeting Internet weirdos in real-life since 1997, Wed 2 Apr 2008, 11:17, closed)

I think you'll find..
.. that CD's is correct.

If you are pluralising initials then it is acceptable to use an apostrophe.
(Mrs Liveinabin is not ill anymore!, Wed 2 Apr 2008, 11:18, closed)

@Mrs Liveinbin
I would disagree. Similarly for 1980s, and so on. No apostrophe.
( K2k6 has seen Lesley Garrett naked, Wed 2 Apr 2008, 11:19, closed)

I thought
you only put an apostrophe on an acronym or initials if the words those initials or acronyms stood for warranted an apostrophe in the first place, so compact discs wouldn't have one.

EDIT-like wot K2k6 said
( althegeordie probably shat on your face as you slept last night, Wed 2 Apr 2008, 11:22, closed)

this is great
I haven't learnt so much at work in ages.

I am a number head and apparently part of the generation that wasn't taught grammar - it was deemed unnecesary in the early nineteen eighties (shit couldn't think how to deal with 80's any other proper way) "modern age of teaching".

I did read that spellchecking gives different mistakes (often grammatical), and regular non-use of spellcheck will actually improve you to the point of not needing it - eventually.

This language thing is a bloody hard business.
(much like many of the stools mentioned)
( bazza van der trance , ooh baby baby, baby baby. Get up on this., Wed 2 Apr 2008, 11:22, closed)

*Raises hand*
"Miss - can i go to the toilet"
( KISS.ME.WHERE.I.POO Signed the sex offenders register on, Wed 2 Apr 2008, 11:24, closed)

It's a bit sad really
That we should all have known this by the time we left primary school. My sister's a primary teacher - she said they don't teach this sort of stuff rigorously any more.
( K2k6 has seen Lesley Garrett naked, Wed 2 Apr 2008, 11:24, closed)

@K2k6
That's where I learned it - primary school. My grammar school was shockingly misnamed.
( crackhouseceilidhband is bitter in a good way, like olives, Wed 2 Apr 2008, 11:25, closed)

@kiss.me
depends if it's going to be a number two, and if it will produce an amusing story.
( althegeordie probably shat on your face as you slept last night, Wed 2 Apr 2008, 11:26, closed)

Semi colon
What is the proper use of this? I use it as a comma with a pause after - often to separate two distinct parts of a sentence which in all honesty is probably overlong.

AND colon is shit related!!

What a morning i am having here (at least according to the timestamp on my reply)
( bazza van der trance , ooh baby baby, baby baby. Get up on this., Wed 2 Apr 2008, 11:26, closed)

Great stuff, you and my friend Ana would get on
Any email or letter I send to her, after being read, is promptly sent back with all my grammar and spelling errors highlighted for my edification (she calls it the butchers apostrophe).
( pobblepop needs more tea, Wed 2 Apr 2008, 11:28, closed)

At my secondary school
They started putting up posters each week to give basic details of various forms of punctuation, commas, colons (hehehe) etc. I used to take them down and replace them with, initially, similar looking ones that were subtly different (i.e. wrong) but eventually just surreal. They stopped putting the posters up after that.

That was as close as we got to being taught grammar.
( althegeordie probably shat on your face as you slept last night, Wed 2 Apr 2008, 11:30, closed)

Semicolons
The bane of my life! I utterly adore them and like to overuse them.

The correct usage for them is as a connector between two sentences or phrases of roughly equal length - the second sentence acting as an explanation of the first.

The man smelled; he had just pooped.
( chickenlady Official Antelope keeper and trainer for 2009, Wed 2 Apr 2008, 11:33, closed)

International education
Having been educated in an international school, we gave up on trying to enforce correct grammar. We sort of mix-n'-mached various bits of grammar from all the different languages.
( mistaspakkaman - meeting Internet weirdos in real-life since 1997, Wed 2 Apr 2008, 11:35, closed)

how about
the b3tans vigorously masturbated; it was Wednesday.
( althegeordie probably shat on your face as you slept last night, Wed 2 Apr 2008, 11:36, closed)

Combining the QOTW and this
I went off to read Eats Shoots and Leaves while sitting on the loo.

It would seem I am wrong, kind of.

*Quote.
One significant task has been lifted from the apostrophe's workload in recent years: it no longer has to appear in plurals of abbreviations ("MPs") or plural dates ("1980s"). Until quite recently, it was customary to write "MP's" and "1980's" - and in fact this convention still applies in America.
*End quote.
(Mrs Liveinabin is not ill anymore!, Wed 2 Apr 2008, 11:37, closed)

###BEAMS#### @chickenlady
Thank you!

I just learnt something; as i have been illuminated on the use of the semi-colon.

I am off for lunch with a very smug grin.

(a bit sheepishly as i had to edit my post)
( bazza van der trance , ooh baby baby, baby baby. Get up on this., Wed 2 Apr 2008, 11:37, closed)

Education
When I was at primary school (late 70s) I had grammar slapped into me - Irish nuns. In fact I still have the English Grammar text book we used - I think I stole it...

When I became a teacher (firstly to little ones with big imaginations and now to big ones with big loans) I taught grammar. I used to photocopy pages from that same book from which I had learned as a small girl.

Now with my students I have to do a run through of the most common mistakes. Sadly it's not taught or at least, it's not taught well in schools. It's a shame because good grammar and spelling helps us all to understand each other better.
( chickenlady Official Antelope keeper and trainer for 2009, Wed 2 Apr 2008, 11:38, closed)

I have to disagree
My spelling is appalling - I know this. I am dyslexic and have found English a constant struggle. Fortunately I have been blessed with a great mind for numbers (accountant).

Even though I check my stories in Word before posting - I know they will contain mistakes. Should I not post them in future in case I offend anyone who is anal about spelling and grammar?

Please feel free to correct any mistakes in this post.
( KISS.ME.WHERE.I.POO Signed the sex offenders register on, Wed 2 Apr 2008, 11:40, closed)

When I was at primary school
I was taught to put an apostrophe in front of bus. I asked the teacher why but she didn't know. That was just the way it so, so do it like that!


(BTW. I'm a primary school teacher.)
(Mrs Liveinabin is not ill anymore!, Wed 2 Apr 2008, 11:41, closed)

I hope...
that I never, ever upset you grammatically...

I do get a bit pedantic over this myself, but I am aware that sometimes I let horrendous lapses of grammar slip through the net...
( Davros' Granddad diddleydumdiddleydumdiddleydumwooeeeeooo, Wed 2 Apr 2008, 11:41, closed)

@ Mrsliveinbin
It's because it used to be Omnibus. Just as there used to be an apostrophe in front of phone and plane.
( chickenlady Official Antelope keeper and trainer for 2009, Wed 2 Apr 2008, 11:42, closed)

IMHO
I think the majority of posters on qotw do no harm at all - and of course we all make cock-ups...I was once gently scorched on either /links or /talk for posting 'get's' - in my defence I was excited about something at the time.

It's the habitual abuser that irritates me.

It's your language - learn how to use the bugger FFS!

I think now I shall try to think calm thoughts....
( chickenlady Official Antelope keeper and trainer for 2009, Wed 2 Apr 2008, 11:45, closed)

@Chickenlady
I know that now, I was just miffed at being told to use an apostrophe when no-one could tell me why.

I used to put one in front of phone as well, but I think I'm alone on that one these days.
(Mrs Liveinabin is not ill anymore!, Wed 2 Apr 2008, 11:46, closed)

If all you lot have to worry about is bad spelling and grammer...
Then good luck to you all.

Some of us are at work and don't have time to faff about checking everything before the boss comes in and catches us wasting time on this website. I don't come on this website to write impeccably correct stories I come on here to have fun.

I do try my best though and I have been known, when bored, to go back through past answers and correct my spelling.

Lighten up!
( big-girl's-blouse Wake me up when it's January, Wed 2 Apr 2008, 11:46, closed)

@ Mrs Liveinbin
We're a dying breed.
( chickenlady Official Antelope keeper and trainer for 2009, Wed 2 Apr 2008, 11:49, closed)

@ BGB
Admit it...you love it...
( chickenlady Official Antelope keeper and trainer for 2009, Wed 2 Apr 2008, 11:50, closed)

Blimey chickenlady
Kudos on a most useful posting in this otherwise shit QOTW!

One more thing though - most people don't understand the difference between fewer and less.

As far as I have been taught, fewer denotes a reduction in discrete objects one could count, less is for things you couldn't count.

e.g. I have fewer apples than last time
but
I have less time to collect apples.
(tarbin tarbis, tarbit, tarbamus, tarbimus, tarbant, Wed 2 Apr 2008, 11:51, closed)

@tarbin
yes, and students who can't tell the difference between precision and accuracy.
( crackhouseceilidhband is bitter in a good way, like olives, Wed 2 Apr 2008, 11:53, closed)

CDs
I always thought it was acceptable to use an apostrophe in CD(')s too.

The reason being the apostrophe is used to signify the skipped letters in the abreviation before pluralising it, not as a part of the pluralisation.

Or maybe I'm just confusing that with artistic license, such as in "o'er there", to signify letters missed due to an accent associated with the text.
(nibblet99 is avoiding work on, Wed 2 Apr 2008, 12:03, closed)

@Nibblet99
It used to be ok to put an apostrophe in CDs but the grammar Nazis changed it.
However they didn't bother telling anyone about this and then get all pissy when the rest of us get it wrong.
(Mrs Liveinabin is not ill anymore!, Wed 2 Apr 2008, 12:08, closed)

Whilst I agree with your sentiments
It's not always as simple as saying use the dictionary. Homonyms can cause endless confusion to people with dyslexia or dyspraxia and aren't picked up by spell checkers as they're spelled correctly and spell checkers, at least those in firefox, don't take context into account.

I agree that people should take time to write using correct spelling and grammar as the internet generally isn't a time restricted environment, so being rushed is no excuse.

At the other end of the spectrum, whilst I may mentally complain at someones barely coherent ramblings, I usually keep quiet about it as long I can understand what they are saying. After all, that's the important thing.

The other thing to remember that the internet is a global phenomenom and with people from all over the world, there are doubtless many for whom English is a second language.
( LemonEntryMyDearWatson This time, Moriarty, the hand is on the other foot, Wed 2 Apr 2008, 12:10, closed)

*claps*
I too am fed up with poor grammar! BAN THIS SICK FILTH!
( Droog is too orangey for crows, Wed 2 Apr 2008, 12:14, closed)

I'm a somewhat reformed grammer nazi.
That is, I notice when someone uses incorrect punctuation or grammar or spelling, but unless they've pissed me off I say nothing about it.

On the other hand, I've been known to go back and do ninja edits of posts when I spot an error of my own.

Do the errors on the QOTW posts irritate me? Yeah, a bit- but not enough to flame someone over. Unless, of course, their post is absolute shit anyway...
(The Resident Loon Don't worry, we're from the Internet!, Wed 2 Apr 2008, 12:17, closed)

anal
nice
(magictorch, Wed 2 Apr 2008, 12:18, closed)

A note of caution
I've written a book on grammar and punctuation (unpublished, admittedly) and I still make mistakes in my posts because I read through them too quickly.

A word on semi-colons. They can't be used in place of commas, or colons and have the same meaning. Though various rules exist, the best and simplest is that a semi-colon can only be used when dividing two grammatical sentences. A full stop should be the alternative. Compare:

1) I shat my pants; I had the shits
2) I shat my pants. I had the shits.
3) I shat myself: I had the shits.

1) is two separate but closely thematically connected sentences
2) is two separate and distinct sentences.
3) is one sentence explained by another

Essentially, unless you are a serious writer or a show off, there's really no reason to semi-colons at all. I am a show off.
(frankspencer, Wed 2 Apr 2008, 12:21, closed)

@KMWIP
Dyslexia is just an excuse - sorry but being dyslexic and knowing a lot of other similarly afflicted individuals; I know it can be overcome to quite a great extent.
With of course the added bonuses of having quite an advanced visiospacial perception and an engorged ability to manipulate vast amounts of data at the same time.
This varies according to the individual - but there are tricks to work around the mundane issues that we encounter on a daily basis - it just takes a lot more time than it would for "normal" people.

Yes - I still get words wrong - but I have no-one to blame but myself!
( Far Out Slave last ate at, Wed 2 Apr 2008, 12:22, closed)

@ The Loon
I agree wholeheartedly with you. While mistakes in grammar and spelling irritate me, I tend to avoid flaming individuals - hence the need for my rant.


/gets off soapbox
( chickenlady Official Antelope keeper and trainer for 2009, Wed 2 Apr 2008, 12:23, closed)

@nibblet99
If that were the case, then surely it would be C'D's?

Or C.D.s, because abbreviations are sometimes denoted by a full stop.

To be fair, language is a fluid, ever changing thing, and the rules are continually changing.

My boss (of the elder generation) uses a hyphen in to-day and to-morrow. My dictionary says that's 'archaic' usage. I must point this out to him!

Also, someone was discussing semicolons earlier. I think it's also possible to use them to separate phrases in lists, rather like one would separate a list of single words using commas. But the poor old semicolon is underused in my opinion. I frequently see sentences which should either be split into two separate sentences, or at the very least have a semicolon in the middle.

"We went to the theatre to see Twelfth Night, I enjoyed it immensely".

Edit - See frankspencer's post above.
( K2k6 has seen Lesley Garrett naked, Wed 2 Apr 2008, 12:24, closed)

worst
'Loose' in place of 'lose'.

This seems to be everywhere these days.

It makes me 'loose' the will to live.


Right, I'm off to eat some potatoe's.

Monty
(my obsession with this sort of thing has led to my being referred to as C-3PO. Not flattering)
(Monty Boyce : definitely NOT an 'African Bum Cleaner', Wed 2 Apr 2008, 12:27, closed)

@Monty
Yes, and 'should of' instead of 'should have'.
( K2k6 has seen Lesley Garrett naked, Wed 2 Apr 2008, 12:28, closed)

^Yes!
And people who say 'waiting on' when they mean 'waiting for'.

And people in general.
( crackhouseceilidhband is bitter in a good way, like olives, Wed 2 Apr 2008, 12:30, closed)

Oh! Oh!
Another one - Off of

As in...Scott Bloody Mills - that bloke off of the radio.

GGGAAAAAHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!

FROM! IT'S BLOODY FROM!!1111


/explodes
( chickenlady Official Antelope keeper and trainer for 2009, Wed 2 Apr 2008, 12:34, closed)

@CHCB
I think 'waiting on' may be a Scottish term originally. It's used almost all the time here.

Just like 'outwith'.
( K2k6 has seen Lesley Garrett naked, Wed 2 Apr 2008, 12:36, closed)

yeah, and
people who post stories about things that sound like the question of the week title but are different in a subtly humorous way. Bastards.

oh
( althegeordie probably shat on your face as you slept last night, Wed 2 Apr 2008, 12:38, closed)

@Mrs Liveinbin & Frau Cluckers
You've actually made my day with the reminder of the 'mysterious disappearing apostrophe'. Being a devotee of all things antique, I have books where 'plane, 'phone and 'bus regularly appear.

I'm now straining some corroded braincells in an attempt to think of more examples.

Ooh... 'cycle. And 'copter (that's a Sci-Fi one. Points for author).

Oh yes, 'hanged' as opposed to 'hung'. 'Flammable' and 'Inflammable'.

I am also one of those cursed with being a 'work B3tan' so my boring posts are often quickly hammered out before someone minces over and enquires why on earth I am talking about bodily functions to complete strangers with unstable bowels. This could explain over-long sentences (above) and the occasional typo or grammatical error. Please don't hurt my pets.
(osok Rebel without a clue, Wed 2 Apr 2008, 12:40, closed)

@K2k6
yeah, it's a very Norn Irish thing too, so it is.
( crackhouseceilidhband is bitter in a good way, like olives, Wed 2 Apr 2008, 12:40, closed)

What does make me see red, though
is when I hear one of the most powerful men on earth using dreadful grammar and shite pronunciation in televised speeches. If you're a global leader, you should be able to properly pronounce "nuclear" and "terrorist". Especially if you sling those words around every time you get in front of a camera.

Some days I really want to send that blithering idiot back to Texas and make Mexico take that entire state back. (No offense, flirtingwithbadgers- I'd let you get out of there first.)
(The Resident Loon Don't worry, we're from the Internet!, Wed 2 Apr 2008, 12:41, closed)

not to mention comparisons ....
Can anyone remember the difference between the "to" and "from" comparisons?

A shiny lolly to the first person to answer
( Far Out Slave last ate at, Wed 2 Apr 2008, 12:42, closed)

Off of
'Off of' makes me laugh, it's usually used for comedic effect on Scott Mills though of course.

example: "David Hasselhoff, off of the eighties". It's daft, he's not really from the eighties specifically, but he is associated clearly with that period. He is obviously associated with many other things, but it seems funny to pick one, especially something that many other people are associated with and is certainly not specific to him.

It's funnier than "David Hasselhoff, off of Knightrider", which other than being grammatically horrible, is more specific than the eighties - a more general term.

Why the fuck am i banging on about this.

Also, "Eats Shoots and Leaves" annoys me. It's capitalised (correctly) because its a title but the book is about grammar. That phrase is unusual as a title, it would be more commonly found in a sentence and thus "Eats shoots and leaves". I think the captalisation detracts from it's intended point.

But then, noone would buy a book called "Grammar and that". Although, actually, that's not bad.
( I have run out of coke scum, subhuman scum, Wed 2 Apr 2008, 12:43, closed)

And appropriately the whole debate has drifted back on topic...

...due to the big discussion about colons.

/coat
(The Supreme Crow : LOVE IS BOAT, Wed 2 Apr 2008, 12:44, closed)

I'm not a grammar nazi but...
I'm not a grammar Nazi but I get a bit annoyed by people who think they need an apostrophe to make something plural. How did they manage to get into the habit of using an apostrophe when it isn't needed? Where did the non-existent apostrophe come from? Do they have some kind of apostrophe fetish? I’ve even got a CD storage-case that has the word “CD’s” embossed on it.
( mistaspakkaman - meeting Internet weirdos in real-life since 1997, Wed 2 Apr 2008, 12:46, closed)

I don't know about the extra apostrophes
but many of my students seem to possess a random comma generator. I wouldn't mind but they're programming in Java and should be using semi-colons.
( crackhouseceilidhband is bitter in a good way, like olives, Wed 2 Apr 2008, 12:48, closed)

Like, what?
The most common word in the English language appears to be 'like'.

I went to the students' union to go swimming at lunchtime and heard a gaggle of student girls chatting behind me.

"Yeah, I got, like, 90%, and I was like, great!"

"Oh, like that's good, 'cos I got like 95%"

And so on. I smiled.
( K2k6 has seen Lesley Garrett naked, Wed 2 Apr 2008, 12:48, closed)

@CHCB & K2K6
'Waiting on' - does it not have something to do with service? I.e. a waiter is 'waiting on' someone.

As Scots has a lot of French influences from the days when we were allied to the Garlic Munchers, and Norn Iron dialect has a lot of Scots influence might there be a connection?
(osok Rebel without a clue, Wed 2 Apr 2008, 12:49, closed)

^aye
'waiting on' implies waiter-type service.

The hole in the hedge in Northern Ireland that my parents like to call home is the nearest point to Scotland so we have lots of shared dialect.
( crackhouseceilidhband is bitter in a good way, like olives, Wed 2 Apr 2008, 12:51, closed)

@K2k6
They, like, obviously weren't, like, comparing marks on, like, an English test...

I agree wholeheartedly. How did "like" come to replace "said"?
(The Supreme Crow : LOVE IS BOAT, Wed 2 Apr 2008, 12:52, closed)

Waiting on
Yes, but 'waiting on' is also used to mean 'waiting for' in these parts.

Remember Marillion? Fish wrote a line in Slainte Mhath:

"Waiting on the whistle to blow"

which contains two Scots usages - waiting on, and the infinitive 'to blow'. Typical (not necessarily correct - advice please) English would say "Waiting for the whistle blowing".
( K2k6 has seen Lesley Garrett naked, Wed 2 Apr 2008, 12:52, closed)

@CHCB
It could be worse. They could be programming in Perl.
( mistaspakkaman - meeting Internet weirdos in real-life since 1997, Wed 2 Apr 2008, 12:53, closed)

Erm...
I just have to add as a very, very sad and shameful, nay, guilty, pleasure...that this is currently giving me as much pleasure as the recent Wank Wednesday.

That is all.
( chickenlady Official Antelope keeper and trainer for 2009, Wed 2 Apr 2008, 12:54, closed)

I try to be correct
having been taught the old-fashioned way, but if I'm guilty of the odd howler, then I'll apologise.

@K2k6 - outwith isn't used outwith Scotland apparently, and the grammar Nazis at work have banned it altogether in case some poor soul in England (or elsewhere) can't figure out what it means.

I always correct my kids' homework for grammar and spelling and have been known to take a red pen to the teachers' remarks as well. I'm sure they love that!
(TheWeeWitch avoiding DIY for safety's sake .., Wed 2 Apr 2008, 12:55, closed)

things the English don't seem to understand:
the phrase: "I'm only after me tea/ I've just had me tea" when they offer you something to eat.

the phrase: "leave it til", meaning "leave the door slightly ajar".

the expression "I chewed the face" or "I ate the bake" off someone (it means you told them off).
( crackhouseceilidhband is bitter in a good way, like olives, Wed 2 Apr 2008, 12:56, closed)

@Supreme Crow
They probably were students of English - standards are falling, you know!

I blame the Americans for this particular linguistic device! Not you though, Loon - you're too old! :-)
( K2k6 has seen Lesley Garrett naked, Wed 2 Apr 2008, 12:56, closed)

Perhaps we could alter the Wible
from Naked Thursday, to Naked and Grammatically correct Thursday?
( althegeordie probably shat on your face as you slept last night, Wed 2 Apr 2008, 12:58, closed)

like
'"Yeah, I got, like, 90%, and I was like, great!"'

You can translate Valley-girl speak into Geordie just by moving the 'like' to the other side of the object.

"Yeah, I got, 90% like, and I was, great, like!"
( mistaspakkaman - meeting Internet weirdos in real-life since 1997, Wed 2 Apr 2008, 12:59, closed)

My favourite Scotticism
Is the use of 'doubt' to mean exactly the opposite of what it means in English.

"I doubt it's going to rain" means "I have resigned myself to the fact that it is going to rain", rather than expressing some uncertainty.
( K2k6 has seen Lesley Garrett naked, Wed 2 Apr 2008, 12:59, closed)

@al - my Wible
will be impeccable in terms of grammar and typography. None of that King James shit...
( crackhouseceilidhband is bitter in a good way, like olives, Wed 2 Apr 2008, 13:00, closed)

@CHCB
maybe we don't understand those phrases because taken out of context they make absolutely no sense!

*grins*

Chewed the bake off sounds like it could be rude though.
( althegeordie probably shat on your face as you slept last night, Wed 2 Apr 2008, 13:00, closed)

@K2k6
I love the local use of the word "ken" meaning "I know" or "do you know". Not sure how widespread this one is, but incomers often ask who ken is before someone enlightens them.

Ken what I mean?
(TheWeeWitch avoiding DIY for safety's sake .., Wed 2 Apr 2008, 13:02, closed)

@mistaspakkman
Tremendous! I'm still chuckling at the Geordie expression!
( K2k6 has seen Lesley Garrett naked, Wed 2 Apr 2008, 13:03, closed)

Chickenlady
Firstly, thank you Chickenlady.

Secondly, I agrre with Frankspencer on the use of Colons/Semi-colons:

Colons are used when the second sentence explains the first, or to indicate the start of a list.

I'd use Semi-colons to separate sentences that are close in meaning but require more of a pause than comma. If in doubt, try reading your sentence out loud (should that be 'out-loud?').

All that said, I'm an English teacher and I frequently make mistakes when typing, even when writing on the board. *edit* see 'agrre' above... My spelling is awful. My grammar is usually ok...

Finally, this: pbfcomics.com/?cid=PBF099-Grammar_Wizard.gif
(ComplexStuff Was confused by life on, Wed 2 Apr 2008, 13:04, closed)

K2K6
I know, I was implying that the Scots dialect is a more courteous (and archaic) language than that of our Southern neighbours.

E.g. 'waiting on Wee Mad Jimmy' implies that you are granting Jimmy superior status, whereas 'waiting for Wee mad Jimmy' assumes equal status.

In English English, the equivalent would be the painstaking use of 'Sir', 'My Good Sir' and so forth, politely giving a stranger or acquaintance precedence.

The Cumbrian dialect also contains, or did, some really archaic useages which would be quite understandable by Chaucer, but not Charlotte Green.

Gosh, worra lot of big words.
(osok Rebel without a clue, Wed 2 Apr 2008, 13:06, closed)

@WeeWitch
Aye, I ken whit ye mean.

But I suppose we're now lapsing into Scots, rather than the Scottish usage of standard English. It's a big, thick grey area!
( K2k6 has seen Lesley Garrett naked, Wed 2 Apr 2008, 13:07, closed)

And the wifey's awa' to get the messages
The Scottish Parliament website is also partly in Scots.
(osok Rebel without a clue, Wed 2 Apr 2008, 13:10, closed)

Time for a Scottish poem, methinks
Upon that hill there stood a coo,
It's no there noo,
It must hae shiftit.

Upon that hill there stood a bull,
Fu o wind,
It must hae riftit.

I wonder why that coo departit?
It must hae thocht the bull had fartit.

With apologies to William McGonagall.
( K2k6 has seen Lesley Garrett naked, Wed 2 Apr 2008, 13:14, closed)

^
William McGonagall is a genius! The Tay Bridge Disaster is a particular epic piece of work.
( crackhouseceilidhband is bitter in a good way, like olives, Wed 2 Apr 2008, 13:21, closed)

At least you English types
don't get the ghetto-speak we have over here. The inner city bumble-lip drives me up the fucking wall- don't axe me sumpin, you fuckwit, or I'll use a bladed tool on your thick skull and toss you into the drainage pit.

What was really a revelation, though, was moving from New York to the southern United States. Get out a distance from the city and they look oddly at you if your enunciation and grammar are of the same sort that they hear from them city folk on the television. If you go into a bar and ask "Where's the restroom?" you're likely to get your ass kicked by Cletus for not using the proper form, "Whar's da crapper?" And we won't go into referring to a violent thunderstorm as a "gullywarsher"...
(The Resident Loon Don't worry, we're from the Internet!, Wed 2 Apr 2008, 13:24, closed)

@CHCB
He certainly was. The last Sabbath day of 1879 has indeed been remembered for a very long time!
( K2k6 has seen Lesley Garrett naked, Wed 2 Apr 2008, 13:29, closed)

We get the yokel thing here too
you go away from "the big city", and you find pubs where they look at you funny if you aren't related to at least one of the bar staff or their pets (should pets have an apostrophe here?).

This is impressive, almost 100 replies and still pretty much on topic, despite my best efforts to talk about wanking.
( althegeordie probably shat on your face as you slept last night, Wed 2 Apr 2008, 13:32, closed)

Another Scots Poem, and (almost) on topic!
TAE A FART -

Oh whit a sleekit horrible beastie
Lurks in yer belly efter the feastie
Jist as ye sit doon among yer kin
There sterts tae stir an enormous win'
The neeps 'n' tatties 'n' mushy peas
Stert workin' like a gentle breeze
But soon the puddin' wi' the sauncie face
Will hae ye blawin' a' ower the place
Nae maiter whit the hell ye dae
A'bodys gonnae hiv tae pay
Even if ye try tae stifle
It's like a bullet oot a rifle
Hawd yer bum ticht tae the chair
Tae try an' stop the leakin' air
Shify yersel fae cheek tae cheek
Prae tae God it disnae reek
But aw yer efforts go assunder
Oot it comes like a clap o' thunder
Ricochets aroon the room
Michty me a sonic boom
God almichty it fairly reeks
Hope a huvnae s**t ma breeks
Tae the bog a better scurry
Aw whit the hell, it's no ma worry
A'body roon aboot me chokin
Wan or twa are nearly bokin
A'll feel better for a while
Cannae help but raise a smile
Wis him! A shout wi' accusin glower
Alas too late, he's jist keeled ower
Ye dirty bugger they shout and stare
A dinnae feel welcome ony mair
Where e'er ye be let yer wind gang free
Sounds like jist the job fur me
Whit a fuss at Rabbie's party
Ower the sake o' wan wee farty
(osok Rebel without a clue, Wed 2 Apr 2008, 13:36, closed)

And another
Upon a hill there stood a doocot,
It's no there noo, 'cos some cunt took it.
( K2k6 has seen Lesley Garrett naked, Wed 2 Apr 2008, 13:44, closed)

and why not this one, in that case:
To A Penis

Poor wee saft an’ flabby penis
Hours o’ pleasure ye hae gei us.
An hour or twa ago wee thing
Ye made a lassie’s glad heart sing.
She doted oan the love ye geid
An’ lost wi’ joy, her maidenhead.
But noo wee thing ye look sae sad
Ye’re jist nae guid tae Rabbie lad.
An’ as I slowly puff ma pipe
Ye look jist like some wrinkled tripe.
But still, Ye did a guid nicht’s work
Ye did yer duty, didnae shirk,
Ye carried oan, Geid Rabbie pleasure,
So lie doon an’ rest, ye’ve earned yer leisure.
Yer wabbit oot an saft as butter
But hoo ye made Jean Armour splutter.
She shook jist like a trimmlin jelly,
As ye went skuddin’ up her belly.
Her bonny thighs, her arse sae braw
Did answer natures wildly ca’.
Ye fairly lowped at what ye saw,
Those michty breasts, sae firm an’ braw.
An’ when ye began the glorious poke,
Oh, the joy o’ every stroke.
Then as ye finished a’ yer work,
I gasped wi’ each an’ every jerk.
‘Twas prood I wis o’ ye, guid Penis
Oh, hoo ye worked sae gay atween us.
Then , as Jean an’ I lay in the straw,
My pair we thing , ye faded awa’.
Ye geid yer a’ tae satisfy,
The urgent need o’ Jean an’.
An, noo my bonny Jean’s gone hame,
Ye hing yer heid in sorrowed shame.
Ye’re no the Yin that I should blame,
But ye did me wrang when ye came.
As love’s sweet song ye wildly sang,
I kept ye in her far too lang.
So while future’s tae be seen,
Perhaps there’s a bairn for bonny Jean.
Ah, weel a’ we men tok’ oor chances,
Let’s saunter doon tae Poosie Nancy’s
An’ when we’ve had a dram or twa,
I’ll let ye piss agin the wa.
Ye’ll maybe pardon my abuses
An’ realise ye’ve ither uses.
An’ while ye droop an’ hing yer heid,
Ye’ll hae satisfied ma ither need.
( crackhouseceilidhband is bitter in a good way, like olives, Wed 2 Apr 2008, 13:44, closed)

100!
no?
YES!!!

Edit: *does 100th post post-bagging victory dance*
( crackhouseceilidhband is bitter in a good way, like olives, Wed 2 Apr 2008, 13:45, closed)

Woo
100th!

Edit: Bugger!

Further edit: *Swears at CHCB for getting in there first!*
( K2k6 has seen Lesley Garrett naked, Wed 2 Apr 2008, 13:45, closed)

^ (lots) William McGonagall
I have a copy of Spike Milligan's McGonagall Scrapbook at home, which lampoons the poor unfortunate mercilessly from start to finish.

I particularly liked the section where McGonagall is asked "Do you like Burns?"

"Aye" he replies

"Well cop a load of this then" as a red hot poker is shoved up his kilt.
(PJM Has had his cover well and truly blown, Wed 2 Apr 2008, 13:45, closed)

Speaking as an employer
Learn to spell and punctuate. Get grammar and syntax correct. Otherwise, your Job App & CV go straight into the bin.

There is nothing less appealing to a prospective employer than someone telling you how great they are, only with the language skills of a retarded lolcat.
(PunchMyFace it's squelchy fun, Wed 2 Apr 2008, 13:59, closed)

Punctuation
Yes, I agree. Punctuation is very important.

It really annoys me when people don't turn up on time.

What?
( K2k6 has seen Lesley Garrett naked, Wed 2 Apr 2008, 14:01, closed)

this has given me a great idea for tonight
I am going to toss myself silly, while talking dirty to myself in regional dialects of english. In as good a grammar as i can muster.

"howay, purple headed firemman, pet"
"am gonna toss ya til ye cum, ya bastard. d'ya ken?"

(sorry folks of regional dialects - i only speak essex and thats not sexy coming back at me!)
( bazza van der trance , ooh baby baby, baby baby. Get up on this., Wed 2 Apr 2008, 14:03, closed)

CLICK!
Well said, Chickenlady!

I am pretty clumsy with a keyboard so am pretty forgiving when someone's mistake is obviously a typo. If someone writes "belongng" it's reasonable to assume that they can really spell "belonging" for example. Sometimes we don't notice typos even when when we look for them, as we see what we think we've written rather than what is actually there.

My bugbear is text speak. I don't use it myself even for text messages, but can accept it as a result of the limitations of writing on a mobile phone's keyboard. I can NOT accept it in any other form of writing. If someone can't be bothered to type "your" instead of "ur" I can't be bothered to read what they've written. I suspect you may agree, Chickenlady - in which case any chance of a posting on this? I have a feeling it would be rather good.

Thankfully very few people here use text speak when posting.

(checks carefully for mistakes before posting)
(eesnahk, Wed 2 Apr 2008, 14:05, closed)

GAH! Txtspeak!
Now there is a reason to loathe Prince! That little fuckhead was the one who invented this particular blight on humanity with things like "Nothing Compares 2U" and "I Would Die 4U". Can we pleeeeease impale him on a telephone pole in Wisconsin where he'll never be found?
(The Resident Loon Don't worry, we're from the Internet!, Wed 2 Apr 2008, 14:11, closed)

^^what they said
text speak is horrible! I try not to use it even in text messages, but in any other place it should be a hanging offence.

I caught a trainee using it in a work-related email once and tore the little blighter a new arsehole.

/and breathe

EDIT: I second TRL's suggestion re the small purple one
(TheWeeWitch avoiding DIY for safety's sake .., Wed 2 Apr 2008, 14:13, closed)

text speak
This makes me a horrible intellectual snob and probably a dreadful person, but I was recently dating someone who sent all their texts and emails in text speak. It grated to such an extent that every time I read 'lol' or 'wat iz dat about lolz' in a written conversation that I was about to blatter him over the head with a keyboard until he constructed a decent sentence. The romance was therefore doomed due to the fact that I'm a fucking pedant.

Edit: and my students type their emails to me in text speak. They don't use capital letters either. They never sign their names - I'm just expected to know who mx3074pt actually is. Worst of all, they use smilies. Fucking smilies. If I'd tried that with any of my lecturers I would have had my head torn off, and rightly so.
( crackhouseceilidhband is bitter in a good way, like olives, Wed 2 Apr 2008, 14:14, closed)

PJM Election pledge
When I'm running the country, useage of text speak or smileys will result in the perpetrator being paraded through the nearest town centre wearing black pointy hat and a tee shirt with the word "CUNT!" printed on it.

Onlookers will be encouraged to throw rotten fruit.
(PJM Has had his cover well and truly blown, Wed 2 Apr 2008, 14:20, closed)

@CHCB
No, you're quite right. They'll never learn if they're not viciously punished.

When I did my O Grades (back in the Dark Ages) you lost points for poor spelling and grammar. Bring back the good old days!
(TheWeeWitch avoiding DIY for safety's sake .., Wed 2 Apr 2008, 14:21, closed)

^ PJM for PM!
*sells grandmother to bankroll election campaign*
( crackhouseceilidhband is bitter in a good way, like olives, Wed 2 Apr 2008, 14:21, closed)

CHCB
A simple suggestion- tell your students that if they email you with smilies and txtspeak, you'll remove a half point from their final grade for each email. Only formal spelling, grammar and punctuation will be accepted, with a maximum of five typographical errors per email. This should resolve your problem nicely.
(The Resident Loon Don't worry, we're from the Internet!, Wed 2 Apr 2008, 14:22, closed)

PJM for PM and TRL for President
It's time for a takeover bid - the world is ready!
(TheWeeWitch avoiding DIY for safety's sake .., Wed 2 Apr 2008, 14:24, closed)

@PJM
Sorry, I wouldn't vote for you.

You're far too lenient!

Perhaps if you suggested public floggings....
( K2k6 has seen Lesley Garrett naked, Wed 2 Apr 2008, 14:25, closed)

@TheWeeWitch
too true!

Despite the fact that lecturing is around a third of my actual job (the other parts being research and admin/pastoral care) I do take my teaching quite seriously. I enjoy it and I like the idea of helping the students understand the basics that they seemingly fail to comprehend on their own.

Anyway, I was recently completing my University-sanctioned teaching cert (a.k.a. the Certificate in Teaching and Learning Knowledge-empowerment and Management or something equally jargony) and we were given the following important advice:

- you shouldn't really correct grammar/spelling. They're computing students, it's not really appropriate and it might dishearten them.

- always begin your feedback with something positive (e.g. "I really liked your formatting!") then the negative criticism (constructive, naturally), then finish on a positive note. My teacher friend informs me that this is known as a 'criticism sandwich'.

Christ, I need a drink and it's only 15:27. I'm in a nasty, evil headspace today.

Edit: @Resident Loon - they'll appeal if I do that. They're customers now, apparently. They pay for their degrees (this is not true - they pay for their education - but they think it is). I'm not allowed to do things like deduct marks, challenge students or go postal in the bell tower.
( crackhouseceilidhband is bitter in a good way, like olives, Wed 2 Apr 2008, 14:28, closed)

PJM for PM
Well, I did put some of my ideas to Chickenlady the other day who suggested that if I were made PM, we'd need to have a Ministry of Ethics to oversee me, just in case I got carried away with putting various people who offend me up against a wall.

That leaves a position free in my cabinet for Enzyme.

CHCB can be my Minister for Education, BGB would be my Foreign Minister and rachelswipe can be my Chancellor of the Exchequer.

I need a suitably sinister character with a taste in long black raincoats to run my Ministry for the Interior. Any volunteers?
(PJM Has had his cover well and truly blown, Wed 2 Apr 2008, 14:30, closed)

@CHCB
What? *coughs, splutters*

They're adults, the ones you teach, right? Grown up, left school?

Then they should be able to take criticism! It's one thing going easy on little kids (but not too easy or they never learn) but for the love of the wee man!

/and breathe ... again

EDIT: PJM, I'll do that - I can do sinister, and I've got a long black coat (and shiny, pointy-toed boots, if that helps?) Please?
(TheWeeWitch avoiding DIY for safety's sake .., Wed 2 Apr 2008, 14:32, closed)

@PJM
might I suggest Enzyme as Minister for Health? It's the other half of his field after all. That, or spin doctor. Don't give him Foreign Policy though - he's bad with maps.

If you're elected I'll begin my ministry by testing everyone in the UK. Those failing the test or using text speak will be culled.
( crackhouseceilidhband is bitter in a good way, like olives, Wed 2 Apr 2008, 14:34, closed)

@WeeWitch/CHCB
It's the same here. We're not really allowed to fail students, and especially not to deduct marks for poor spelling or grammar.

Now a high proportion of the class I taught this year were from overseas, and English was not necessarily their first language, so I am prepared to make allowances. But for the British students, I would expect the answers to be at least comprehensible, if not perfectly written.

Some of them would make text speak look like good English.
( K2k6 has seen Lesley Garrett naked, Wed 2 Apr 2008, 14:35, closed)

to be frank
And going my experience as a copywriter/journalist/teacher/academic, it's really a waste of time to preach good grammar and punctuation to the masses, just as it is to correct an old man who says "nigger" in the supermarket. Most people just don't care and don't even notice bad English. Just look at all hideous song lyrics and scripts on TV. I correct texts written by high-powered lawyers (not Ms Swipe I hasten to add), accountants and medics - none of whom are much good at grammar or punctuation. Think they care?

By all means teach kids. But we teach kids Shakespeare, too, and you know how much they appreciate that.
(frankspencer, Wed 2 Apr 2008, 14:36, closed)

Okay then...
try this: extra credit will be given for those who can communicate clearly in written English with proper grammar, spelling, punctuation and capitalization. Make it worth an additional five points on the final grade, with the same leeway for five typos per email. The only way to earn said extra credit is to make it through the entire semester without one bad email.

Positive reinforcement can be an effective tool as well.

Oh, and PJM- I have a long dark cloak. Will that do? Or do I need to be a British citizen?
(The Resident Loon Don't worry, we're from the Internet!, Wed 2 Apr 2008, 14:36, closed)

@TheWeeWitch
Yes. Yes, the adults. The 18+ year olds. Heaven forbid we upset them.

We are forced to scale our exam results so the units have a comparable spread of marks. I'm probably not supposed to tell anyone that.
( crackhouseceilidhband is bitter in a good way, like olives, Wed 2 Apr 2008, 14:36, closed)

*jumps up and down waving hand in the air*
I like long black raincoats! But I've heard that Davros' Grandad actually owns and wears one, so he might be better as your interior minister.
( althegeordie probably shat on your face as you slept last night, Wed 2 Apr 2008, 14:36, closed)

QUOTE CHCB
- always begin your feedback with something positive (e.g. "I really liked your formatting!") then the negative criticism (constructive, naturally), then finish on a positive note. My teacher friend informs me that this is known as a 'criticism sandwich'.

I've been told the same thing (except I know it as a shit sandwich).
When marking primary school work we are expected to mark to the learning objective and not worry about grammar, spelling and the like unless they are part of the objective.
Oh and we can't use red pen.
(Mrs Liveinabin is not ill anymore!, Wed 2 Apr 2008, 14:37, closed)

Red Pen
When I get feedback on reports or letter I write for work, I like any corrections to be in red pen so I can see them and not send out crap to clients. The idea that people are so sensitive that they get offended by red pen makes me want to smash peoples (those people only mind, i'm not weird or 'owt)faces in with hammers. GRRRRRRRR.
( althegeordie probably shat on your face as you slept last night, Wed 2 Apr 2008, 14:40, closed)

English as a foreign language
If you learn English abroad, you’re just influenced by your English teacher. If on the other hand you learn English in England, you’re influenced by the poor grammar of those around you, so I’d expect foreigners to have better English these days.
( mistaspakkaman - meeting Internet weirdos in real-life since 1997, Wed 2 Apr 2008, 14:42, closed)

@PJM - on reflection
I think I'd prefer Defence - I do like a man in uniform!
(TheWeeWitch avoiding DIY for safety's sake .., Wed 2 Apr 2008, 14:45, closed)

@PJM
Can I be in charge of the ministry of poopy buttocks?
( mistaspakkaman - meeting Internet weirdos in real-life since 1997, Wed 2 Apr 2008, 14:47, closed)

PJM Government
Yay for the Ministry of Poopy Buttocks!

I might make Frankspencer my spokesman too.
(PJM Has had his cover well and truly blown, Wed 2 Apr 2008, 14:51, closed)

Frank's right enough
It makes me sad to admit it, but he's perfectly correct. People just don't care.

We can all rant as much as we like (and we do appear to like!) but the Daily Star readers aren't going to take any notice. They're more interested in who's shagging that bird 'off of' Eastenders.

The world is dumbing down, because humans, as a race, have become so successful and clever that we have ceased to evolve. Not only do the weak (of body and mind) survive, they seem to propagate more effectively too.

I'm being a snob now. I'll stop here.
( K2k6 has seen Lesley Garrett naked, Wed 2 Apr 2008, 14:53, closed)

Rant? Us?
Surely not.
( althegeordie probably shat on your face as you slept last night, Wed 2 Apr 2008, 14:55, closed)

@PJM
Could you create the post of Minister for Taking Responsibility for One's Own Actions in yo